Design Help Needed

[djkester]

I am posting this on the forums at HeroGames.com as well and I'll let you all know what I hear back. But I wanted to ask you all for your input.

In the world I am creating I want there to be support for different fighting styles for those characters that go the way of the warrior.

I have thought of the following three:

1. Weapon centric. The attack and damage come mostly from use of a weapon + stats. In Archtype terms I'm thinking of a D&D fighter here.
2. Skill centric. The damage is a combination of weapons + stats + skill. In archtype terms I'm mostly thinking of assassins and rogues here. Back stab, sensitive area attacks.
3. Hand to Hand or Martial arts. The attack and damage come from the skill + stats. In the context of the Fantasy campaign i'm thinking of the D&D Monk as the archtype here.

My question to you is:

what other archtypes can you think of that I should look to in discovering the models of martial combat.

[anarkeith]

An archer may fall under your weapon-centric heading. But I've always been frustrated that an archer was always a ranger in D&D. I like Aragorn, but other people use bows too.

[djkester]

Archetypes I can think of related to the archer:

The marksmen or Yomen of the Bowmen
Castle wall stuff - crossbows and long bows used by peasants and others with little training
Ranger stuff - woodsmen with hunting bows, rapid firing on the move

Classic characters:

Legolas
The elf in Hawk the Slayer
Robin Hood

Can you think of additional concepts or characters?

[anarkeith]

Dec 7, 2010 17:17:10 GMT -5 djkester said:

Can you think of additional concepts or characters?

I don't suppose you've heard of Bunce Tiddley, and his wardog Blood? Randy can tell the story better than I can... ;D

[djkester]

Dec 7, 2010 16:18:51 GMT -5 anarkeith said:

An archer may fall under your weapon-centric heading. But I've always been frustrated that an archer was always a ranger in D&D. I like Aragorn, but other people use bows too.

To come back to this topic. This is one of my pet peeves about some games.

My goal in designing this world is to provide the support for as many arch types as possible while maintaining a relatively straight forward character creation process.

I have two goals:

1. Stay within the guidance of Hero Games core rules and the Fantasy Hero genre book.
2. Keep the character creation process some what streamlined so players don't feel lost in the creation process.

I want to have a 3-4 page guide for creating your character with specific detailed descriptions of flavor and rules of 2-3 pages for choices you make.

Total I'd like to keep the documentation on character creation for the campaign world 20-30 pages.

Also, after I complete this effort I'm going to go back and create a tapestry of house rules to use DnD 4e to run the world.

Likely, i'll need to use an optional rule to allow for:

1. A more diverse power selection
2. A more diverse weapon and armor proficiency selection
3. More freedom in racial modifiers (WoTC is already doing this in a limited way with the new one stat +2 and a choice of the other between two stats.


Keep the arch types coming.

[randy]

Sounds like you have a great start on the core martial rules, Dave. Not familiar with Hero Games, but... Based on what you have stated, you would list the various combat skills (weapons, fighting styles, etc), and non-combat skills that help out (hide, move quietly). The player can then mix and match to suit their vision. As players come up with new ideas you can always add the skill into your system. In my game system, in addition to standard weapon skills (some weapons are more "expensive" to learn because they are harder to master), players can put points into combat skills like "berserk", "find weakness", and "racial enemy". I also have a list of tactics players can use in combat (no purchase required)- such as "charge", "fending", "pressing", and the very popular "shield wall".

[djkester]

Randy,

Thanks.

The Hero System actually has all of that already and a lot more.

The problem is actually that the system is intended to pretty much allow you to model anything you want.

The reason I'm asking is that I'm actually creating a campaign and to that degree I'm looking at creating some frameworks for people to pick from that will make character creation a lot easier than the core system allows.

I will at some time in the future run a game using the system and give people a chance to practice it. Likely I'll make some premades at a fairly low power level so people can get a feel for the core mechanics without the possible complexity of a real Heroic character.


Hero System is the evolved mechanic system from Champions. Which was originally published in 1980 or so.

The current system version is 6.

[anarkeith]

Randy's comment about the abilities he used in his system had me thinking that this design choice is an important one for the flavor of your system. Whether it is D&D-flavored, or Tolkien-flavored, or Fritz-Leiber-flavored, the ability choices you offer during chargen will define it. Some of this is designer, and some intended audience.

Dave, if you're paring down Hero System to make your own game rules, for your own game world, be sure to look at the flavor of your game. My take on Ubin was that there was a potential for a lot of sorcery and spontaneous magical enhancement. There's a lot of energy loose there at times. Are there times when that goes into a low ebb? Then perhaps you use desert creatures as a model for how it might work. A dormant sorcerer that can spontaneously cast when it is exposed to another caster using magic, for example. A sort of magical vampirism?

On a fighting front, what if you had a magical equivalent to the psionic-augments that are used in 4e? A fighter tuned to the fluctuating energies of Optri could draw on it to boost strength, or damage as an augment of sorts. (I bet Hero has a mechanic for that, as it sounds like a thorough system.)

That's just intended an as example, but hopefully it adds to your game-design ideas.

[randy]

Sounds like I need to check out Hero System. I love the Champion mechanics and ran a really fun campaign for awhile (the former players keep asking me to revive it!) The Champion system inspired some of what I do for my home brewed fantasy rules.

[djkester]

Dec 9, 2010 17:14:12 GMT -5 anarkeith said:

Randy's comment about the abilities he used in his system had me thinking that this design choice is an important one for the flavor of your system. Whether it is D&D-flavored, or Tolkien-flavored, or Fritz-Leiber-flavored, the ability choices you offer during chargen will define it. Some of this is designer, and some intended audience.

Keith, I agree. That is what I'm really trying to understand. Chargen options during the game really will be defined by the style of the campaign. There is a lot about this type of thing in the Hero System: Fantasy Hero genre book. This is clear to me.

Dec 9, 2010 17:14:12 GMT -5 anarkeith said:

Dave, if you're paring down Hero System to make your own game rules, for your own game world, be sure to look at the flavor of your game. My take on Ubin was that there was a potential for a lot of sorcery and spontaneous magical enhancement. There's a lot of energy loose there at times. Are there times when that goes into a low ebb? Then perhaps you use desert creatures as a model for how it might work. A dormant sorcerer that can spontaneously cast when it is exposed to another caster using magic, for example. A sort of magical vampirism?

Keith that is some great ideas. I am using Ubin to inform this effort but I am not sticking to to anything specifically.

However, there is something to be done with this idea of "loose energy." My thought on this is that at times when Optriminiscar is producing a high amount of energy spell caster could take advantage of that if they are design to do so. I wouldn't want people to feel arbitrarily limited unless they chose that option for your character.

Dec 9, 2010 17:14:12 GMT -5 anarkeith said:

On a fighting front, what if you had a magical equivalent to the psionic-augments that are used in 4e? A fighter tuned to the fluctuating energies of Optri could draw on it to boost strength, or damage as an augment of sorts. (I bet Hero has a mechanic for that, as it sounds like a thorough system.)

The problem with Hero is that its' actually a very thorough system. The problem with Hero is not building any particular concept its actually the opposite. Its figuring what you want the limitations to be to support the genre, and flavor.

So my take is right now i'm gathering the ideas and seeing how they fit into the model.

My process starts with writing. After I complete the flavor then I'll work on the crunch.

Dec 9, 2010 17:14:12 GMT -5 anarkeith said:

That's just intended an as example, but hopefully it adds to your game-design ideas.

Its a great example. I love the idea of the vampire mage. That is a great concept. And I have already been thinking about the augmentation builds.

This is an area for further discovery on my part.

Thanks