Point Buy Combat, Updated Jan 22

[anarkeith]

I'm attaching an RTF of the Combat Menu for martial combat. I believe that it will be relatively easy for players to implement because they can choose the details of the attack to match observed circumstances, rather than trying to fit a pre-defined attack to those circumstances. This also allows for multiple uses of an effective attack in a single encounter.

Note that this is intended to replace the existing 4e martial combat powers, and so includes some translational elements (e.g., converting the 16 4e conditions to three).

Also, I've been "mucking with the maths" to try and scale the damage capabilities with 4e characters.

Attachments:

[anarkeith]

Here's a modified point model that includes some restrictions in how the points are spent. Each player would have a hand of certain cards, depending upon their PC's level of experience. Discarding the cards would "pay" the point costs for actions. Cards would be recoverable (at the DM's discretion) at the end of the encounter.

Attachments:

[anarkeith]

The card economy model revised further (to incorporate heroic mechanics)

<snipped, and replaced by a more up-to-date version, below>

[randy]

I think this could be simplified more without any lose of balance or gaming experience (same applies to the magic system). One mechanic to consider is you get a number of "heroic action points (HAP)" based on your level (no need to divide them into different categories of 1-5). Your access to the higher levels increases with experience- example- Level 1 or 2 can only use one HAP at a time, level 3-4 up to 2 HAPs, etc.

Another suggestion is I don't see the ability to use HAPs increasing as character level increases (you may be doing this and I'm not seeing it or am misunderstanding it). It seems that as a character gets more powerful they should see more opportunities to do their special attacks. Maybe start out at a minimal level and increase the range as the character advances.

I do like the different categories of "specials", and it seems it would be fun to mix and match depending on your character concept.

[randy]

Another thought on the use of higher level HAPs, you could only use a higher level if you rolled well enough. Example- you have a level 10 fighter, who can use up to 5 HAPs with a successful roll. However, in order to use five with a single hit he must have rolled a success by +5 (or +4, etc). If he was only successful by 4 he could only spend 4 HAPs on that hit. That could even eliminate the HAP restriction as certain levels, since perhaps a level one character could not hit by +5...

[anarkeith]

Dec 25, 2010 17:46:57 GMT -5 randy said:

One mechanic to consider is you get a number of "heroic action points (HAP)" based on your level (no need to divide them into different categories of 1-5).

Randy, I agree that it could be simpler. I divided these up to give the players an in-hand "currency" that they could spend, rather than just ticking off points. My thinking was it'd be easier for players to track that way (some people have trouble tracking their HP, surges, etc.)

Dec 25, 2010 17:46:57 GMT -5 randy said:

I don't see the ability to use HAPs increasing as character level increases

Yeah, good catch. I'm struggling with that. I agree with your logic that it should increase as the PC advances in experience. I'm looking for ways to implement that without making it overly complex. There are a couple of built-in points in 4e where benefits are added that may fit well with adding a hero number. At this point, I'm just guessing on some of this and would have to play it to see how balanced or unbalanced it is.

[anarkeith]

I'm pondering the possibility of separating the tactical options from damage-dealing entirely. For example, players would have a distribution of at-will, encounter, and daily attack powers which would determine the number of dice of damage they could deal. Then, if they rolled an "heroic number" they could apply the tactical modifier (e.g., no attack, no move, no sense, forced movement, etc.)

I'm trying to find ways to make the record-keeping and implementation simple, in order to speed combat. One problem with the above example is you're still left with that disconnect between action and actions. Why can a fighter only do 4[W] damage once per combat? If it's just "using a power", it ends up too much like a spell. Is there an elegant way to model the circumstances of the hit that make it more potent, that doesn't add to the record-keeping or math-in-the-moment?

[anarkeith]

Dec 25, 2010 17:51:26 GMT -5 randy said:

However, in order to use five with a single hit he must have rolled a success by +5 (or +4, etc). If he was only successful by 4 he could only spend 4 HAPs on that hit. That could even eliminate the HAP restriction as certain levels, since perhaps a level one character could not hit by +5...

Something like this, Randy. But something that can be figured on-the-fly by the player (to ease the burden on the DM). Maybe impossible without just revealing the numerical defense value of the monster, which seems like an immersion-breaker to me.

Although I guess I could highlight the "heroic numbers" over the monster's defense when I write up the monsters. Then when my players call out their to-hit values I could tell them, "OK, you can do an extra 2[W] damage with that shot" (for example).

[anarkeith]

REVISED 1/22/11:

Heroic attacks for weapon-based combat in 4e D&D

Players want heroic actions in combat that don’t require a lot of actions on their part. In this alternative combat system for weapon-based attacks, players are dealt cards based on their character's experience level (see table below) as currency in an economy of heroic actions that represents fatigue and skill in the abstract. Roll a d20. If your roll is a hit, or of a pre-determined value, it may allow for heroic actions, which can be “purchased” with the cards.

A basic, at-will, weapon-based attack always does 1[W] + ability modifier damage (alternately, 1[W] damage may be exchanged for 1 point credit towards one of the tactical options listed below). When a player rolls a successful to-hit roll, they may either make a basic attack or expend points by turning cards in hand face down to make a heroic attack. A player is limited to spending points equal to, or less than, the highest value card allowed at their character’s level on any one heroic attack. Heroic attacks include damage + ability modifier or effects purchased from the class-based or universal tactical options menus. Damage dice may be purchased at a cost of 1[W] per 1 point.

On a critical hit (20 on a d20), you may expend points equal to your highest value card in hand. All weapon dice are considered to have been rolled for maximum damage.

A player rolls an 18 on a d20 (modified to a 21 by bonuses) for his 1st-level fighter, exceeding the target's AC of 19. The player is eligible to expend up to 4 points towards additional damage (up to 4[W] in this example) plus his basic damage or a tactical option. The total effect of the heroic attack would be 4[W] + ability modifier damage, or 3[W] + ability modifier damage and a tactical option.

Hero numbers

Each PC that engages in weapon-based combat has a certain quantity of "hero numbers". These hero numbers decrement from 19, with the values depending on role, class and primary ability, according to the following distribution:

Martialists or strength-oriented classes: strength bonus +1
Skirmishers/Hunters or dexterity-oriented classes: dexterity bonus +1

Any time a player rolls an unmodified roll equal to one of their hero numbers (whether or not this number indicates a hit), the PC would be able to execute an heroic attack tactical option without expending points from the player’s cards in hand.

A player rolls an 18 on a d20 for his 1st-level fighter with strength 16 (ability modifier: +3; hero numbers: 19, 18, 17, 16). The player is eligible to apply a tactical option, such as “Disarm”, robbing his target of their next attack. If the die roll also indicated a hit against the target, the player would be eligible to further transform the attack into an attack with heroic damage as described in the previous example, provided he had cards available.

Level	Aces	Twos	Threes	Fours	Fives	Max
1 (8)	2	1	-	1	-	4
2 (10)	2	2	-	1	-	4
3 (13)	2	2	1	1	-	4
4 (13)	2	2	1	1	-	4
5 (18)	2	3	2	1	-	4
6 (20)	4	3	2	1	-	4
7 (23)	4	3	3	1	-	4
8 (23)	4	3	3	1	-	4
9 (28)	4	3	3	1	1	5
10 (30)	4	4	3	1	1	5

4e point-value equivalent: Utility (2); Encounter (3); Daily (5)

Class-based options (1pt each):
a) Universal (available to all weapon users)

• Grab (target restrained until it escapes or you end the grab)
  
• Knock Prone (no move)

b) Martialist (or other melee-weapon user)

• Cleave (strike an additional target; target must be adjacent to attacker)
  
• Disarm (no attack)
  
• Press (push target 1 square and shift into the space that the target occupied)
  
• Intimidating Charge (when you charge, target suffers -2 on next attack)

c) Skirmisher

• Back Stab (gain combat advantage for next attack)
  
• Switch Positions (exchange positions with adjacent target)
  
• Tumble Past (shift 1 square)
  
• Blinding Barrage (no sense)

d) Hunter (or other ranged-weapon user)

• Volley Fire (strike an additional target; target must be adjacent to, or the same as original target)
  
• Vulnerable Prey (when target has no adjacent allies, target suffers -2 on next attack)
  
• Hit and Run (shift a number of squares equal to 1 + Wisdom modifier)
  
• Hunter’s Fury (for Rangers who are two-weapon melee fighters: strike an additional target with off-hand weapon; target must be adjacent to attacker)

Note that durations of all effects are until the end of your next turn, unless otherwise defined.

[randy]

One way to do this would be to make the "Hero Number" a level based formula (easy to calculate, and takes into account relative level differences, plus scales nicely against lower level creatures). The Hero Number would be the character's level minus the opponent's level. This would be compared to the base Hero Number of 20.

Examples-
Randak, level 1 fighter vs. Grunk, level 1 orc fighter- Hero Number 20 (for both sides if you want monsters to use them). [Randak hits with a 20 but can only use 1 HAP]

Varekai, level 2 mage vs. Grunk, level 1 orc fighter- Hero Number is 19-20 for Varekai. (Default 20 for Grunk? or none at all vs. Varekai?). [If Varekai rolls a 19 can use 1 HAP, or 2 HAPs if he rolls a 20]

Carrot, level 5 fighter vs. Grat, level 2 orc mage- Hero Number 18-20 for Carrot. [Carrot can use 1 HAP on an 18, up to two HAPs on a 19, and the smackdown 3 HAPs on a 20]

[djkester]

If you made the die open ended you could allow for an unlimited number of HAPs.

one a 20 roll again and add the dice together.

[anarkeith]

My initial playtest might have been unduly influenced by some weird die-rolling, but I found the card mechanic hard to initiate for the fighter. The window of opportunity was too small.

Randy, I think you and Dave may be right that a simple formula is the way to go. I'm playing around with the idea of sticking with the heroic number range (the hitting of which will allow use of a tactical option) while adding extra damage for points over the target to-hit roll.

That way, players would have a relatively broad window in which to apply tactical options, and then good rolls would equal more damage. So, as a simplified example, if a monster's target defense was a 17 and the player rolled a 14 on a d20 and got a modified 19 (roll value + modifiers) then, they would be able to apply 2 extra [W] weapon dice of damage. As a DM, it'd be easy for me to note the values with my monster notes to let players know their bonus on-the-fly, depending on the formula I come up with.

In the same example, if the player had hero numbers of 17, 18, and 19, and the monster's target defense was 17, and the player rolled an 18, they'd get a tactical option plus additional damage.

[djkester]

Keith,

If you want sometime to meet and discuss the conventions I'd love to. What you are describing is similiar to Hero System's Combat Levels. I think I could explain it to you in like 15 minutes and it might serve as a reference for the system you are designing.

[randy]

When testing systems, always be careful of rolling dice to test, since unless you are going to do an aweful lot of rolling, randomness can really affect things (as you may have found out). I always look at the expected range of results (i.e. This Level One character swinging at this Level One monster should miss x% of the time, hit y% of the time, and critical z% of the time). This will give you a good idea of results over time, and then you can decide whether that fits into your game concept or not and adjust accordingly. I often run an actual playtest when I am done, but it is usually more for fun and to test the feel and flow of the system.

My thought on complexity (and as you know my game is more complex then many) is that unless it adds materially to player options/experience or the overall game experience it should be eliminated or simplified. Players should be focused on role playing and using skills/combat, not on figuring out rules.

@dave- I do like the idea of a critical (or other event) possibly allowing "extra" HAPs, would be cool for those big monsters, near impossible situations, etc. You could build some cool (yet simple) rules around Keith's base system.

[anarkeith]

Thanks you guys!

At it's most basic, 4e offers X extra dice of damage per encounter, per level. Rather than giving it in pre-defined chunks (e.g., the current powers system) I'm looking for a way to make it more fluid. In the case of the magic user, I've given the player complete control over how those assets are applied.

In the case of the weapon user I'm looking for a different way to do it, to give weapon users a more unique feel. But I think I may have gone off track trying to tie it to the to-hit die rolls.

I've posted a refinement of my weapon user combat model above as: "Heroic attacks for weapon-based combat in 4e D&D".

I'm prioritizing damage, and letting the players opt into tactical stuff when they want to, either by buying it with points or swapping out damage. That way, players can judge the situation and apply tactical options that suit the moment.